A (Mostly) Stay-at-Home-Mom

Crafting for Cash: Is a Handmade Business Worth It?

Charmaine Season 2 Episode 6

Have you ever looked at your baked creations or crafted items and thought, "I could sell these"? Before you leap from passionate hobbyist to small business owner, this candid deep-dive into the realities of handmade businesses might save you time, money, and heartache.

Drawing from her personal journey running a home bakery and creating wedding cakes, alongside observations of fellow crafter-entrepreneurs, Charmaine exposes the often-overlooked challenges behind those picture-perfect Instagram posts. 

Is this a worthwhile side hustle or just a hustle that takes away from your precious family time? Join us in today's frank conversation with actionable tips for moms looking for side income opportunities. 

Share your own craft business experiences with Charmaine at mostlyhomemom@gmail.com – we'd love to hear your story!

Speaker 1:

Hi there and welcome to another episode of the Mostly Stay-at-Home Mom podcast, where we chat about entrepreneurship, mom life and earning a side income as a busy mom. I'm your host, charmaine, and I'm so happy you're here. We are now in the second season of the podcast and in my last episode it's called the Five Amish and Mennonite Mama's Side Job Ideas. I give some good ideas for side jobs, if you're interested, based on what I've observed in the Mennonite and Amish cultures. But in that episode I mentioned that I was starting a series within this second season, all about generating a supplemental income, all about money making as a busy mom, because I feel there are two main topics on this podcast and I usually dive into the first, which is just how to create a more sustainable, better running, efficient and happy, loving, livable home right, because home life can get so overwhelming at times with all of the different tasks we have as wives or moms or, you know, just members of a family, and so I like to go into that topic a lot. But I'm realizing that as the Mostly Stay-at-Home Mom podcast, my other goal was to give good ideas for generating income on the side if your family needs it, because I know I'm on this journey as well and I'm looking for other people to sort of form a community with and just look for genuine opportunities. Because it does seem like online there are some heisters and some people either downright scamming or exaggerating the usefulness of their products or programs or businesses or whatever, and I just wanted a place where we can talk honestly about real ideas for real people and real moms who aren't perfect but really want to make their homes a happy place and are looking just for simple ways to earn a few extra hundred dollars or whatever to cover groceries or other expenses in their lives and their families. So for that reason, the next few episodes will be about moneymaking as a mom and again, this is not like a primary moneymaking tool or episode, but like a side income. So I hope you enjoy this little series within the season two. So today we'll just get right into it.

Speaker 1:

This episode is all about crafting and handmaid's business, and I actually have direct personal experience in this, of course, because I like to try all kinds of different things. I am a crafty, artistic person, so it's no wonder that I've been drawn to this. Yeah, so we're going to talk all about this money-making tool today. I want to try to highlight the pros and cons today. So if you're thinking about going into selling one of your crafts or something that you made to see if it's worthwhile for you and your family, you know your time as a mom is important, it is precious and you want something to be worthwhile if you're going to go into it. So how do women get into the crafts and handmaids business?

Speaker 1:

I find that usually it's a result of having a passion and wanting to share that. This is what I've observed in a lot of friends and just accounts on social media and in myself as well. I am very passionate about a few things, about just making things. I like to sew and embroider, I like to craft and, most of all, I love to bake. So I have been sharing on social media, my personal pages, just the things I make. It makes me really I don't know I enjoy it when I post pictures or share some things I make. It makes me really I don't know I enjoy it when I post pictures or share some things I make and then I connect with other accounts that are doing similar things and I learn from them and I get project ideas from them. So in that aspect, social media can be a fun tool. But then and this is my story and it's probably similar for a lot of people who find themselves in the crafts or handmaids business I kept posting about what I made, just for fun, just as an experiment.

Speaker 1:

And then people, my friends, my followers, began to sort of recognize this pattern and began to know me for these things. And then I started getting comments like you should sell this. You know how much I want this. And so, yeah, you do start to think you know what, if I could sell these things and make a business out of it, would I be profitable? Would people enjoy the product? You know, it starts to be a possibility in your mind and that's how it went for me. So it started as a baking passion that led me to do a home baking business, and first I'll talk about that and then I'll talk about other craft businesses. Of course, baking is not the only one, but I will talk about my home bakery experience first, because that is what I have the most experience in.

Speaker 1:

So, again, how did I get into home baking a few years ago? Well, it was a compulsion to bake. I cannot explain it, I just love to. I have a compulsion to. It's sort of calming to me in a way. It's an outlet for sure, it's a way I can be creative and it's also delicious most of the time. So yeah, I love baking, I love sharing it on social media, so then it's not too much of a leap.

Speaker 1:

After I got comments from friends saying I should sell it or you know whatever, that these things look so delicious, I started thinking, well, it's not that hard to do more of what I'm already doing, you know. So I started experimenting with trying to sell different products. I sold just one Christmas I did batches of whoopie pies, kind of experimentally. My biggest passion within baking is layer cakes, and so I just kind of dove into the caking world or whatever. And I ended up doing a couple craft fairs. I literally sold my baked goods in front of my house, like in my carport once, just to I don't know. I just had this compulsion again to bake a lot of things and offer it to the world and I kind of wanted to see, you know, just put it out there and see what the interest was.

Speaker 1:

And then I did do an official market with other crafters and sellers too, like a local market, and then I actually ended up doing three wedding cakes, but two of them were for free, or I'm sorry I should say one was for free for a family member. The second was free as far as labor and everything, but I got reimbursed for the ingredients. I should say it was a good friend. I handed her my receipt from the grocery store and she paid me back for the groceries and that was our arrangement. Though, like no one forced me into it, I was very happy to do it. It was my gift to the couple and it was my way of like starting out and trying to get my feet wet in doing wedding cakes. And then the only wedding cake that I charged was for someone like a friend of a friend. I didn't technically know the couple, but they were relatives of my friend who asked me to do it and I said yes, and I ended up doing a couple cakes that served 150 people for $150. So that would be $1 per serving, which is astronomically low for the industry, but it was.

Speaker 1:

Again. I lacked confidence and I was in the beginning stages of trying to find out. You know, is this a business? But yeah, looking back, I mean this would have been in 2022. So prices were a little lower, but not that drastically different from this recording in 2025. Yes, there's been inflation, but not that much. So you can imagine, I made two half sheets and a two tier cake to feed and I think it would have fed more than 150 people, but I wanted to be sure. Yeah for charging $150. I mean, I don't even know if that covered I guess it covered the ingredients, but anyways, it was a good experiment and yeah, it definitely revealed the business to me and all sorts of things I had to learn.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's a couple of hurdles when you go into home baking that I'm going to highlight first, before the benefits. So first of all, there's the cottage food law that you need to navigate. Each state in the US has different cottage food laws and so I started researching. I mean, it takes a lot of time and effort to research these things. I dove into it and I found that I couldn't just sell anything in the state of Florida.

Speaker 1:

I guess In the state's defense states have their own rules to protect the consumers. You know, home bakeries or cottage food entities do not have to submit to the same government regulations and safety checks, so they need other, I guess more stringent safety rules in place to make sure that you know the consumers are consuming a product that is safe and healthy. And so here in the state of Florida, things that melt easily and go bad in the heat are a total no-go. So, you know, anything with cream cheese, butter, that kind of thing that's not baked into the baked good would be against the cottage food law. So you can't just make like a cheesecake, I think and this is subject to change, by the way, but I think when I was researching this, you know also, fresh fruit were also not allowed within the laws, and so I found them to be quite limiting, and since my theme as a baker is natural, whole ingredients, organic ingredients, it felt really limiting in that regard.

Speaker 1:

So that was the first hurdle is navigating the food laws, seeing what ingredients I could even use. And then you, there are certain ways you have to package the item and reveal every single ingredient, which is a good rule, but just food for thought when you think, oh, I could make money just doing my hobby. It actually turns out like there's all these other steps you have to follow in order to actually legally sell your handmaids or your hobby. So that's at least the case in baking. The other hurdle was that I and I think this is common for beginner business owners but I underestimated the true cost of providing this product and service of baking.

Speaker 1:

Just because you have some figures in your mind of what it takes to bake for yourself, it doesn't mean that's going to be the same when you start baking for other people. When I bake for myself, I just think of the grocery cost. But that's because grocery shopping for me is a totally different story than grocery shopping for a client or a customer, and that's part that should be part of the charge. It's not just like I'm just doing this for free and you know, because I want to out of the fun of my day. That's one small part of it. Like sourcing your materials okay, whether you're baking or knitting or scrapbooking or whatever sourcing your materials. There's also the packaging costs. It does take a while to see what packaging fits best with what products, and then there's also branding and marketing to consider.

Speaker 1:

You have to get the word out somehow and unless you have a very built up reputation over decades, you will have to put some effort into marketing if you want to actually make sales for your product. I find it very hard for small businesses, businesses like home bakeries, to get the attention that they need. So marketing ends up being a huge effort. And then also like communication, just communicating with potential clients. You know, obviously not everyone who is interested in your product has to buy it. That's, you know, the beauty of our free will. But realizing that these conversations you're having with prospects, you know they might choose to buy, or they might choose not to buy, but that's still might choose to buy, or they might choose not to buy, but that's still time spent on the business. So you need to be, you know, just charging accordingly. You don't want to strip it down to just the purely the minutes you're baking, because there's so many more things that go into the business other than baking or other than making whatever it is you're selling.

Speaker 1:

So I found that I vastly underestimated my costs of doing business and I think, just from observation, that that is a common hurdle as well. The other thing is it's hard to portray your true worth via marketing. So what I mean by that is I have a theory that in today's you know, industrialized Western society, we have a really hard time seeing the true value of things because goods can be so cheaply created, whether that's in factories, whether, you know, unfortunately with poor labor practices, you know, unfortunately with poor labor practices or, I guess, labor conditions, I should say there's all these ways that these large corporations can cut costs in order to make a profit, and we're seeing that in lower prices. But that's not a true reflection of what it takes to produce the good, and I would even add AI in there as a new. It adds a new level of confusion to what it truly takes to produce the good, except for AI. You know is generally involved in generating information type products. But you know also, I like to write, and so you can have AI write a blog post, right, and in the days of yore, people paid for blog posts to be written by writers, and some still do. But some people might view this as a $0 item just because AI does it supposedly for free. So I think, because of the way we produce goods and services now so cheaply with the technology and the factories, we are losing a true sense of what things cost.

Speaker 1:

The good thing is when you do embark on making your own whatever and you see how hard it is just to learn how to make the thing and then in the actual creation itself how laborious it actually is to make the thing. Then you can actually realize what the value is in it. So, for instance I don't know I was talking to someone the other day about making macarons, which are like a French cookie dessert, and it's a pretty challenging, sophisticated process. It's finicky, starting with aging egg whites, like. It takes a lot of time, it takes finesse, it takes learning the correct processes and a lot of trial and error. So I'm not as surprised when I go and see the prices for macarons. You know, especially from like a independent shop or cafe where they're making them homemade. I'm not surprised at all because I have gone through the whole process and I know how hard it is to make them. So that's just one example of when we make something ourselves we can see the value.

Speaker 1:

But in our society I feel like there's so many lost arts and lost skills. We don't really make a lot of physical things that we need for life ourselves anymore and so, yeah, we definitely lose that sense of how valuable it is. So that's going to be a major hurdle if you open your own shop, because people may not recognize the value, the expertise, the, just the incredible skill and artistry you've put into whatever piece. This is Right. So I guess I could go back to like writing. I have a teaching blog about substitute teaching that I've I've been doing the past two years and that is all. You know articles that I've made myself and you know I'm proud of that, as I guess it's sort of a product Not really I haven't really monetized it too well, but it is my creation. But someone might look at that and think it's not worth very much because AI can write blog posts now.

Speaker 1:

Another example would be maybe someone bakes sourdough bread and you know there's a huge learning process to making sourdough correctly and the actual baking of sourdough takes a lot of time. You're fermenting the dough, you are stretching and folding it. It's a labor of love, for sure, and to do it right, to do it well, is it's valuable. But if someone doesn't really know the artistry that goes into sourdough or the benefits of sourdough bread you know there are health and other benefits to it they might think why would I buy this homemade sourdough from someone when I can go to the store and get a $2 loaf of white bread If someone truly doesn't know the skill and artistry. That goes into it Already, from the get-go.

Speaker 1:

If you have a handmaid's business, you have to overcome that hurdle of people not understanding the value, maybe, and what you create. And it's fine, not everyone can create everything Like. There's going to be a lack of education sometimes and yes, I think it's your duty to educate but it goes back to marketing. You're going to have to spend more time then pouring into marketing, and this doesn't mean just social media. It could be a website, it could be more old school. Just, you know word of mouth or even print ads, you know whatever your medium. But I think it would be almost impossible to launch a handmade business from your home without some type of marketing. And you're going up against the big wigs, the corporate stores that people are used to using. Quite frankly, I think most of us in Western society shop at the big stores. So you have to go up against that too, and that's a hurdle that you face as well.

Speaker 1:

And then there are, just like, the regular risks of doing business. It is risky, as you know, the sole proprietor of this business, if you're doing everything, proprietor of this business, if you're doing everything, then if you know something happens that limits your ability to do one of the jobs, then what happens to that business? So I guess one of the risks with baking is that the product, the baked items, they don't last forever. They don't last forever, they go bad, they spoil. And so, unlike someone who might knit some products and if they don't sell them right away, they can store them somewhere or try to resell them another time, baked goods have a very short short window in which you can sell. So baking can be risky in that way. I'm not saying it's riskier than other businesses. Other crafts, other handmaids have their own risks that come with it as well.

Speaker 1:

So for all of these reasons, I think there are a few challenges with opening handmaids or a crafting business. And obviously there are benefits, like if you're passionate about it, if you're already doing it, it can fuel your passion and give you a lot of motivation. You know, if you're looking for extra income and this is something you can do easily, then yeah, I'd say it could be a good option. But the hard part is when a hobby is now becoming orders that you have to fulfill and then you realize my hobby has become a job and it's maybe not worth it. So you just have to weigh the pros and cons honestly and I know it's hard to do that at the outset. Maybe try to gather research, gather other people's experiences and advice. I like to go on Reddit and see what people there think, and then, of course, you will learn the most by diving in and just trying one thing.

Speaker 1:

So, going back to the baking example sorry, I know I keep going back to this, but this is what I actually do. Back to the baking example sorry, I know I keep going back to this, but this is what I actually do. You could start by offering just one, one thing you bake one dessert and seeing how that goes before launching like a menu of five items. It can get really confusing for the customers as to what you sell. If you start off with like all these options that you sell, uh, your messaging can get muddled. So, yeah, I would just start with one product and see how that goes, and then you could always add more after that and start different product lines. But I think it's good to do research and then you might get stuck in this research phase. It's also good to just jump in and start with something a little lower stakes, you know. So that's why I did like a big sale in front of my house? Because the lower stakes are that I don't have to pay for a storefront, I don't have to rent a booth or space somewhere, right Like I'm offering it out of my own home for free. And so that was the low stakes moment for me to really gauge, like, what is the interest you know in these products? And so, if you can find a way to experiment quickly so you can get feedback, I think that's the quickest way and the best way to find out if this is a good option for you. The feedback is invaluable and will help you decide if you should move forward.

Speaker 1:

Where have I landed with all of this home baking? I decided it takes so much more time and effort than I can reasonably give right now. At this point in my family life, having young children, I mean we're surviving, not thriving. So why would I put all of that extra pressure on myself? Like I don't even know if I truly made a profit with the things that I sold? I wasn't super careful about tracking everything, like I tried to. But when you are talking about like you make something with two cups of flour right, like you have to do percentages of the ingredient. It becomes a long process just to sit down and cost out even one product. Let's say I make a cake and I'm trying to price out every aspect of that cake, every ingredient. That's just one thing that I offer, and then there could be three other products again that you have to price out merely just the ingredients, and then the time, the effort, the sourcing, all of the other work on top of that. So it was hard to know what was truly my profit and what was my loss or my investment truly my profit and what was my loss or my investment. And yeah, I don't. I don't know if I even made a profit or if I made that much, so it wasn't really worth it.

Speaker 1:

I did make a couple layer cakes like fancier gourmet layer cakes for um fundraisers and I have so far raised about $1,600 for schools and a church. So and that gave me a lot of joy and just being able to have my cakes raise that much money for good causes. So I really enjoyed that and I still enjoy baking as a hobby. So I think the future of my home bakery is probably going to be like the occasional fundraising opportunity, since I don't want the regular work of a home bakery. That's not worth it for me right now and I don't know if it ever would be worth it, honestly. But I do like doing occasional fundraisers. To me that's like a high impact opportunity for me, but I don't know. It's different for everyone, everyone. But for me that would be worth it, but not the regular home baking, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1:

I did start like an Instagram account for my baking. I do not post regularly at all, but if you want to see things that I bake, I literally post every once in a while. It's very like seldom, but Again, I like to share and share what I'm baking. It's fun and I might use that page someday for either more of these fundraising things or I don't know even sharing recipes, or I would like to teach classes one day, but that's a one day thing. So we'll see what ends up happening to the page, but it will stay baking related.

Speaker 1:

I'm not really directly marketing anything right now, so I'm not going to be one of those people. I'm kind of tired of people selling things on Instagram. But that account is called Baked by Charmaine my first name, baked by Charmaine. So to continue this conversation, I don't want to leave out other handmade products for sure. I don't want to dominate the conversation with baking, because there are so many other things you could make and sell and make a profit for.

Speaker 1:

So let's look at, maybe, some statistics. I had a hard, hard time finding Etsy statistics, but I believe most people who sell their crafts are going to try to market them and sell them on Etsy. Now I did find a blog post by a company called Customsy that had some Etsy stats. I don't know how reliable this is. Granted, this is a company that makes products for Etsy sellers, so take that for what it is. The report said that they surveyed almost 170,000 Etsy shops to find their information and what they came out with. They found that the median annual revenue of these shops was almost $7,000. And that's just revenue. So not profit, but revenue. So once you subtract all of your costs of doing business and so I think that's a pretty blank number to make $7,000 in one year from an Etsy shop. Like I know, I'm talking about supplemental income, but it's really hard, I think, to make income as an Etsy seller.

Speaker 1:

I did do one product. Again. This was tied to my substitute teaching blog. I made a substitute teacher's planner like a digital planner, just to kind of get my feet wet and see if Etsy was going to be worth my time. So the thing is, with Etsy there are fees. I mean you would expect wherever you sell, whether it's a physical space or digital, that whoever holds a space wants a piece of the pie. So with Etsy you do have to pay to even list a product. That was kind of different to me.

Speaker 1:

In the past I have sold digital resources like lessons on a site called Teachers, pay Teachers or TPT, and they have no fee for putting a product up. You can put your files on there for free as many as you want. As far as I know, they might change this. But when they do take is when you make a sale. So when you make a sale they take a percentage and it's a large percentage unless you buy their membership. But anyways, I was used to that with TPT and I made some money on that, not like substantial amounts, but I made some money on TPT selling my.

Speaker 1:

I was an elementary teacher so I sold some of my resources and lesson plans. But with Etsy you have to pay for your listings. So for this experiment, you know, it was cents each month. It wasn't much at all, but still I was like oh, like this is an experiment that I'm running, but I'm also having to pay for it, like that kind of stinks. That's one thing I didn't like about it and my experience just as a buyer on Etsy is it's there's always thousands of search results whenever I look for something and it's getting harder and harder to weed through the actual independent crafters. But you know, if you're looking for handmade items made from a real person in their home, I think because it's gotten easier and easier to go on things like Etsy and market yourself. That just opens up the door to like so many other people to try selling there and unfortunately it lowers the bar a bit and it makes it harder to make a sale because there's so much competition. So I think the Etsy stats are bleak. I had a hard time finding official statistics on Etsy.

Speaker 1:

Other places that I see crafters or handmade people selling their wares would be Facebook and Instagram. I see a lot of bakers on Instagram and Facebook In general, a lot of people on Facebook you can make a page. You can just sell directly from your profile, and Instagram too, actually, that's another thing. Of course, it's free to have an account, but it does take you time to market your product, to make reels or posts or photos or videos or whatever you're sharing. And so, yeah, I've seen friends with you know. One friend made handmade earrings that were really cute. I have another friend who paints. There might be like embroidery. So there's different things that my friends. Just I've observed them and they make these things and they're really high quality, cute things.

Speaker 1:

I'm always cheering them on or buying their products if I can, but from my observation, most of my friends who start these craft businesses end up stopping, you know, after kind of a short period of time. I won't guess at the length of time for any of these because, again, I don't have official statistics. But yeah, it seems like most people who start selling their crafts stop, like they don't stay in it, and maybe that's just the nature of the people who are selling, like they're moms and so we have so many stages in our mom lives that you might be busier in some than others, and so for all those reasons, you know, life just happens right. But also it could be that they find it's just not worth it, you know, even if they're making sales on their products and they're enjoying making these products. It could just, at the end of the day, be so much more work when you add in the time and cost of having a business.

Speaker 1:

So I understand that you're looking of going down this road is to be beware of content creators who they seem to be posting posts and videos about their business. Whatever they craft or make, they sort of lead you to believe that you can make all this money by making that craft. I guess I'll just name a random example of like making cakes, for example. Let's say someone is on social media and she's making cakes all the time. You know you can. You can make a decent amount, I won't deny that.

Speaker 1:

But unless you're making wedding cakes or you know other high price items, it is hard to make like huge profits off of any type of food items. It is hard to make like huge profits off of any type of food. So is the person actually just selling cakes or are they selling contents? Are they selling their course on how to make cakes or how to have a home bakery? Are they selling their recipe ebook? Are they selling digital products? So I guess just be wary, like when content creators lead you to believe that they're making money from whatever it is they're filming. Take a step back and ask yourselves all right, how are they actually making money? They might be making money from the content. So just be careful with that.

Speaker 1:

It's really hard to gauge nowadays whether people are making money off something and whether it's possible for you. So I get it. It's a hard money place to be, especially if you're deciding you know what would be the best supplemental income for your family. I think these are all factors to consider. I don't want to dissuade anyone from it, for sure. I just I really want to be honest about the potential pitfalls of selling your handmade items. It does take a lot of work and really you're running up against.

Speaker 1:

The big corporations have economies of scale in their favor, right? So, since you know the nature of being a person who wears all the hats, and a small business out of your home means that you are small you produce small. You cannot just like have an assembly line of goods unless you buy like an assembly line equipment. But you know, generally home based craft businesses do not have the equipment to mass produce and so you're going up against companies who can mass produce and so it's a lot cheaper for them. They have wider profit margins than you do. Could you eventually buy equipment like I Like? I know some serious bread sellers buy the big bread ovens and make massive amounts of sourdough loaves every week to sell and they make good money and that's great. But that takes quite a bit of coin to even be able to invest in that type of equipment. But the average person just starting a home-based business with what they have, you know they're not going to be able to mass produce like the big stores. So you are running up against that.

Speaker 1:

There's so many things we run up against and still, you know people still try it, like my episode previous to this the side hustles of Mennonite women and Amish women. A lot of the Amish and Mennonites go into crafting because they have so many skills, so many practical skills in making things, and so you know if the Amish and Mennonites still do this, it must be profitable, right? I mean, people still do this. They make a profit off of it. I just think you'd have to be smart with either niching down and offering something really unique where you can kind of command a confident price, or being able to make something very basic but very cheaply and very like mass quantities of it.

Speaker 1:

If that makes sense, I think there are a few ways to go about it. I think there are ways to profit, but the question is, for most of my audience, I think, who are busy moms, is it worth your time? Is this going to be something that moves the needle or is it going to be something that takes up all of your time? You know, with research, with pouring yourself into it and not even being worth it taking away time from your family, from your home, like I want to be realistic about that because I know like time is a scarce and precious resource. I know like time is a scarce and precious resource. So obviously I'm not advocating for starting a home bakery or handmaid's business if that takes away from your family, if you are making Instagram reels instead of cleaning your bathrooms or folding laundry or hugging your kids and reading them one more bedtime story. You know it's hard, but I think we have to kind of sit back and evaluate things, ask ourselves what is the main thing, and then everything else is going to be side things, supplementary.

Speaker 1:

So I hope this episode gave you some clarity. I know I'm running really long, but I hope it gave you clarity on whether this endeavor of crafts and handmade items is for you. I hope I gave you an honest starting point so that when you do research your idea you can have. I can save you time through this, because I know how busy you might be. And, yeah, if you have any experiences good or bad that you want to share with me, I am all ears.

Speaker 1:

I really could even use this as data for another episode. Like please tell me if I'm totally wrong about this. By the way, tell me if you've had a wild success with one of your craft businesses. I am all ears Again, and my email is mostlyhomemom at gmailcom if you ever want to give me feedback on the episode or your personal experiences. So again, thank you for joining me and this is the next episode and the little series on moneymaking as a mom. I hope this gave you insight and clarity. Again, share with a friend if it was useful and please leave a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It helps others to find it and I hope I can help even more people through that. So again, thank you for listening and I will see you in the next episode.

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